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Forum:What is the best form of government?
I think one of the first things that we need to do is define our terms. And part of the discussion needs to be basic definitions of what the various forms of government are, the advantages and disadvantages of each, and which one we want for our various countries and the world in general. List of forms of government *'Aristocracy' - "rule by the wealthy and well-connected". *'Anarchy' - "rule by individual" **'Anarcho-capitalism' - economy organized around private property **'Anarcho-syndicalism' - economy organized around worker control *'Autocracy' - "rule by a single individual". **'Dictatorship' - rule by leadership unrestrained by law **'Monarchy' - rule by a single individual elected by ancestry ***'Absolute monarchy' - monarch's power is unrestrained by law ***'Constitutional monarchy' - monarch's power is restrained by law *'Democracy' - "rule by the people" **'Representative democracy' - the people elect the officers of government ***'Republic' - representative democracy with elected head of state, as opposed to appointed or hereditary ***'Single-party democracy' - one party dominates the government ***'Two-party democracy' - two parties dominate the government **'Direct democracy' - the people themselves vote on the law **'Liberal democracy' - the people's power through democracy is checked by law, often by means of a written consitution *'Despotism' - absolute rule by a single authority (could fall under autocracy or oligarchy) **'Enlighted despotism' - despot uses absolute authority for the betterment of society *'Meritocracy' - "rule by those who most deserve to rule". *'Oligarchy' - "rule by the few". *'Plutocracy' - "rule by the wealthy". *'Theocracy' - "rule by religious leaders, ostensibly on behalf of their deity or deities" **'Christian state' - ostensibly guided by Christian principles **'Islamic republic' - ostensibly guided by Islamic principles *'Tyranny' - General description of a bad regime *'Technocracy' - rule by the scientifically educated, or ostensibly guided by scientific principles Wikipedia has an extensive collection of terms and definitions that describe types of governments. The aim is not to duplicate that here, but to discuss generally what the goals of government should be, and which of the forms is most likely to result in the accomplishment of those goals. A flaw in democracy? To the Campaigns Wikia community: I have had a doubt brewing in my mind for some time now and I would like everyone's input on the subject. It seems to be that, by definition, democracy implies an opression of the minorities. Is this true? If it is, is this where we want society to head? --ШΔLÐSΣИ 01:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC) :That depends on how we define democracy. What you're referring to is the fact that minority voices lose elections, and thus are often not heard or discounted if their numbers are too low. Democracy (literally "rule by the people", from the Greek demos, "people," and kratos, "rule") means different things to different people. Within the word, it doesn't define how the government is established or conducted. Many people believe that the vote is the core of democracy. I don't see it that way. People in US Campaigns always talk about GOTV efforts, for Getting Out The Vote. I'm on a different quest, but one with the same ackronym. My efforts over the past few years and ongoing today are for Getting Out The Voice of the people, because living in a democratic society means that your voice is heard and your views are taken into account, no matter how much of a minority you may be in compared to the 'ruling parties' or whatever. Oppression of minorities is the result of the abuse of power, and does not result from democracy itself. We can learn to be fair regardless of our own views, and deal with things in accordance with written law. Where I want society to move towards is a world where people's opinions and experiences mean something to everyone else, and that everyone works together. Does that help? Chadlupkes 01:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC) :Democracy has been called, particularly by anarchists, the "tyranny of the majority". While it certainly has the potential to be this, the theory of democracy depends on enlightened self-interest and the assumption that extremists and others who would want to oppress anyone would be canceled-out by opposing extremes, resulting in a government that resembles whatever passes for "moderate" in that particular society. Sure, a 51% caucasian or 51% christian society could vote to take the right to vote away from the other 49%, but democracy assumes that a large enough portion of that 51% will be enlightened enough to prevent it from happening. It does make things difficult for minorities with drastically different ideologies from the general population, but the assumption is that such ideologies would be (or would become over time) more common if they were in the best interest of the society. --whosawhatsis? 02:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC) :It's true that democracy doesn't really give the minorities expression. Of course, other forms of government, such as oligarchy and monarchy, don't give even the majority any expression. I think the United States Republic shares a couple characteristics with an oligarchy, since governmental decisions are made by a majority of multiple majorities and not just a simple majority of the people. However, what would a better form of government be? Jfing[[Wikipedia:User:Jfingers88/Esperanza|'e']]rs88 02:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC) ::It should be noted that democracy is inherently disadvantageous to ideological minorities, not the ethnic/racial minorities for whom the word is more commonly used. Disadvantages to the latter (aside from statistical correlation between the two) result from abuse of democracy. --whosawhatsis? 02:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC) :::I don't think democracy is "inherently disadvantageous to ideological minorities", at least not as much as any alternative system. In dictatorship, the minority can oppress the majority. In Anarchy, nothing can prevent the majority from oppressign the minority, should it choose to. McLurker 12:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC) :Maybe it's a mistake to look for one best form of government for all times and places. In places with long histories of ethnic antagonisms - like Iraq, Yugoslavia, and the Southern US in the Jim Crow era - the majority's suppression of the minority can be ugly, and democracy may just perpetuate that. Other places with different histories may well work better on theocratic or tribal principles. Democracy can work pretty well in post-Enlightenment countries that are ethnically homogeneous and reasonably egalitarian. In other kinds of places, going through the motions of democracy isn't likely to change the way real power is distributed. I'm sure you're right to suspect that democracy isn't The Answer. But I can't see that anything else is, either... Deadplanet 05:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC) ::Iraq was not democratic, and in my opinion still isn't. Milosevic-era Yugoslavia was emerging from dictatorship. The American South was democratic, but the oppression of ethnic minorities depended on flaws in the system that allowed certain people to be denied the vote (even today, felon disenfranchisement- which affects black people more than white people- has the ability to affect elections). In the South it was democratic means which made life better for the minorities, and democracy is having a beneficial effect in Yugoslavia. Democracy tends to make people more enlightened. Democracy is impossible without Enlightenment values, but I think it is very difficult to spread these values without democracy. McLurker 12:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC) :::I agree with most of what you're saying. Iraq isn't democratic in any meaningful way, and going through the motions as it's doing now will only make things worse until it, like Yugoslavia, breaks up into more governable pieces. (Whether all or any of those pieces will benefit from democracy in this generation is a different question.) In the USA, on the other hand, the federal government had the strength and legitimacy to go in and open up Southern politics in a way that was opposed by the local majorities in the South. My point was just that history and local conditions always have an effect, and there is no Universal Way Forward. :::Do you support the idea of trying to spread Enlightenment values by invading countries and forcing them to hold elections? Call me a nut, but I tend to think democracy has to be something that people really want. Deadplanet 14:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC) ::::Of course, I don't support democracy by invasion. But I do think spreadign democracy is the best single thing that can be done for a country. Though i also think that globalisation means that some form of surpranational democracy is now necessary. McLurker 14:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC) :::::Do you think the United Nations could become that? Right now they're not a governing body, just a service organization. But that could change. We would need to agree to it, as it wouldn't just be another treaty. :::::I think the regional mergers are moving us in that direction, from the European Union to the African Union. Economic integration in South America is underway as well. Political integration is going to take a lot longer, if ever. But lack of a formal integration shouldn't prevent nations and regions from working together for common goals. Chadlupkes 14:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC) ::::Not just want, the people have to be willing to work for it. Either through violent struggle, like the American Revolution, or peaceful struggle like in India and South Africa. Although the "peaceful" struggles resulted in many deaths as well. ::::And it takes work not just to create a government of, by and for the people, but it takes continuous work to maintain it. We can't assume that a government will last forever, because no government ever has. ::::Let's define Enlightenment values. Chadlupkes 14:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC) Representative Democracy is our form of government and it only ignores the minority if the minority wants what is not could for the entire country. In the case of where we are at now in our history, the majority is the ones who want what is not good for the country. Examples are Socialized health care, Social Security for everyone that will not care for themselves, and basically providing everything an individual is unwilling to provide for himself. Maybe the next form of Democracy will include in it’s constitution a clause that the Government is forbidden to provide social services to anyone. That would put a country back where the United States was in the 1930’s when it was the greatest growing country in the world. Since we got in to the business of taking care of people rather than requiring them to take care of themselves our standing in the world has declined along with our self esteem. One might argue that there are other reasons for this decline but I believe the root cause is socialism. Socialism has never worked and for well known reasons. Basically it is a flawed form of government just as our form of Democracy is flawed. :Ok, except that Socialism is not a system of government, it's an economic system. Social Security and Medicare are not "socialist" programs, they are Foundational programs. They are part of a foundation for a middle class society. If we eliminate the ability of a society to provide true personal security, we reduce our society to chaos based on fear. If we want a middle class in the United States, we have to provide a floor for us to build on, and provide help for people who live below that floor. Do you know that our minimum wage of $5.25 provides someone with an income of $10,980 per year? Do you know what the Federal Poverty rate is? $9,570 for a family of one. The difference is $1,350. So the Federal minimum wage is that close to putting people into poverty. The standard for housing is one third of a paycheck. So that's $3,660 annually, or $305 per month. How many housing arrangements can be found for $305 per month for a single person. And now think about couples, or families with children. Is $5.25 high enough to provide a living to someone with a family, AND pay for daycare for the kids, Health Insurance, a car, food, etc? What don't people need to survive? You don't need daycare if you don't need to work. You don't need Health Insurance if you don't and won't ever get sick. You don't need a car if you life close to work. You do need food, water, shelter, clothing, etc. :George Washington passed legislation providing direct financial assistance to the homeless. So should we. Thomas Paine came up with the idea of Social Security, Medicare, etc. in the 1790s. :One problem is that we see Social Program, and think they are handouts. Some are, and they should be monitored. Most are not. Training programs are required in most places to qualify for financial aid. Unemployment benefits are dependent on a search for work. You talk about people who will not take care of themselves. What about the people who can not take care of themselves? Like the Disabled or children of workers that are currently getting Social Security benefits. :The VA is a socialized program of medical treatment. The doctors work for the VA, the hospitals are owned by the VA, etc. Does it work? Ask the veterans. As long as we as citizens are willing to provide the funding necessary to keep it going, yes it does. :I'm amazed that you consider the 1930's a great era in our history. From whose perspective? The farmers who were dealing with the drought? The people in the bread lines? The children in orphanages? We were the greatest country in the world from the late 1930's when war production started producing jobs up to 1981 when Reagan declared war on the Unions and started our downward spiral again. What makes a country good, the amount of goods and services that we can produce for our internal markets, or how high the Dow Jones gets? :I don't want the government providing 100% of the food, water and shelter for 100% of our people. I want the government to define a floor and make sure that a high majority of our people have enough opportunities to rise above that floor and achieve the American Dream. And I'll pay taxes to help those who are unable to climb the ladder. Chadlupkes 21:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC) See also *Forum:What makes a form of government good? *Forum:What is the best economic system? What is the best form of government?